That said, what is the deal with Sunday School? I guess it has been about 10 years since I have regularly attended because of my callings. This year I started going in earnest and I've been visiting a lot of Sunday Schools in my stake since my calling has me attending all of our Ward Conferences. I don't want to just bash or go off (that's what Sunday School is for–zing), but I regularly feel extremely uncomfortable sitting in Sunday School and I often leave thinking, "Well, that was quite terrible."
Why is Sunday School like this? I'm really asking. I have been thinking about it. I guess it's because there's a wide variety of people in the audience with varying interests. So lots of times we aren't talking about what I'm interested in. Maybe that's the gist of it.
Right now the new church curriculum really emphasizes class involvement, especially in the youth classes. The reasoning goes that if people participate they are more likely to internalize the lesson. But I'm not sure privileging class discussion in Sunday School is good. I'd rather have a prepared teacher lecture to me for an hour than have to go off on some of the strange tangents that class members bring up. It's not that I don't like my class members in general or care about what they think. But it seems like comments are often made just to validate a worldview. This can be uninteresting at best, self-congratulatory and bigoted at its worst.
I don't think the discourse in Sunday School always jibes with our Christian values. What we spend time talking about doesn't reflect how most of us act every day. In a class discussion someone might, for example, extrapolate extreme right wing political theory from gospel principles or suggest that poor people are less righteous than rich people but they probably wouldn't ever question whether something in the bible could be figurative instead of literal.
I'm not saying any of these things are right or wrong. But of mixing church and state, thinking unkindly about the poor, and speculating about literal scriptural meaning, I would say thinking unkindly of the poor is probably the worst of these in terms of Christian values. And yet, we aren't startled at all when this kind of uncharitable talk comes up. We would be startled if someone said they didn't believe Noah's flood covered the whole earth. But which is worse to believe?
Another example: I've heard a lot of very strong words against gay marriage in Sunday School (and I'm not really interested in debating that here. I think we know there are a lot of thoughtful people on both sides of the issue) but I know that individually there are people in my stake who are gay or have gay kids who would be really nice and charitable to gay people in person. (It's a minority of people that wouldn't act this way in person, I believe.)I hear a lot of racist comments in Sunday School too. But again, I think mostly, on an individual level, the people who are saying these things are charitable in real life.
In other words, I know a lot of very nice people who try to live their religion and be kind. But something about Sunday School gives people license to go off and either say what they privately think or spout platitudes that have somehow come to be accepted as OK-to-say-in-Sunday School. I don't really know what's happening there.
Also, there's always that crazy person in Sunday School who says weird stuff. This is great source material for funny stories but it occurred to me one Sunday, what if Sunday School exists to give a voice to the mentally ill? They get a chance to say their piece—no harm done. Maybe we aren't really there to learn or get a better understanding of the scriptures. Maybe we are there to let people talk and feel validated. If that's the case, I'm OK with it.
If Sunday school exists to instruct and inspire, I think if falls short more often than our other meetings. It doesn't always fall short and I'm not saying it's a waste of time. I will say that for one glorious year when our building was being remodeled we skipped Sunday School and went to a 2- hour block and we prospered and felt happy and had no more disposition to do evil but to do good continually.
Sunday School is different from Sacrament Meeting because it is responsive—a 2-way conversation. And it's different from primary or YW/YM because in those classes the teacher is older and more of an "expert" than the people they are teaching, which is more like school. But in Sunday School people are peers and everyone feels deputized to contribute. It can be good—I've been inspired by a lot of my peers' comments—but it can also be quite terrible. I take it hard because I feel uncomfortable so easily. I need to get over that. Like I said, I'm new at Sunday School.
What do you think makes good Sunday School?
I couldn't agree more. I actually teach Gospel Doctrine in my ward, and have done for nearly 3 years now. I love it! It is my favorite. My class is awesome and they know what to expect from me, I think, so I try to give them my best effort. I feel like many of them do the same for me, but I know that is not always the case. Sunday school is fraught with teachers who could care less about doctrine and students who only want to express an opinion no matter if it's logical or not. The main thing I see as helpful: people who have read the lesson and thought about it, and come with a pleasant, spirit-inviting attitude. The thing I find annoying: people who come with the purpose of de-railing my lesson into their own world view. Fortunately, I don't put up with that kind of nonsense in my class and have, I think for the most part, mastered the art of re-direction. Your other issues largely could be dealt with if the teacher was more prepared and read and understood more of the subject matter, or simply, stayed in the scriptures and let them do the talking. The more I use the scriptures to explain things, the better things go. It sounds like I really know what I'm doing, but the fact is that I study, study, study, plan, and then rely on the Lord to do the rest. I think some of the attitudes we have manifest in class are just part of the growth of the church. We can't always understand others, we don't know their worldview, or how they were raised, and the fact is, many of us are still developing our attitudes towards difficult issues being raised in the church at this time. There is and should be grace towards even those who appear closed-minded because sooner or later, everyone has really hard things come up and they might do a 180 later. If that's ultimately what we want, then we shouldn't be too harsh on people who aren't "up" on what's the latest PC attitude to have at church about feminism, gay issues, church & state, etc. Also, you're in Utah, so I think as a natural consequence of your location, you're going to get less flexibility on some of those issues. Where I was raised in the East Coast, and here in Nevada, ain't nobody got time for that. We're just trying to be good neighbors, and we're the weirdos who go to church for 3 hours on Sunday. Anyhoo, I could write a ton more, but I will stop there.
ReplyDeleteIn my ward the non-mainstreamers commenting is *imperative* for my enjoyment and edification, because it's more often the teacher and the bulk of the class who are saying weird, uncharitable nonsense. There's one couple in particular whose slightly unorthodox views have saved me, because without them I wouldn't have figured out that there is room in the church for people like me.
ReplyDeleteI almost started a brawl in Ward Council last week because people were starting to spout off some incredibly bigoted opinions and I couldn't take it no more, captain.
Ugh, Sunday School. Where people go to prove how smart they are!™ I'm so glad to be in with the youth.
ReplyDeleteI think it depends so much on the teacher! I had a wonderful Sunday School teacher a few years ago that arrived with printed outlines for each class member, and stuck to the outline and led really great scripture based discussions each week. He was so prepared all the time! In my current ward we seem to have a lot of crazies in Sunday School each week. Most recently we had one guy give a very long comment on why overweight people should not get temple recommends! It seems like the less prepared a teacher is, the more they are willing to just let anyone comment on any topic in order to fill time.
ReplyDeleteHow DARE you say anything like that about Sunday School!
ReplyDeleteI kid.
I guess I don't think Sunday School is that bad because right afterward I go to High Priests...
"afterward I go to High Priests . . . . " LOL!
DeleteThis post makes me so glad I am not in Sunday School right now. I have to say that I feel the same way. I don't enjoy going to Sunday School. The short time I was able to go last year I felt like it was torture. Not because of the teacher but because it wasn't as focused as I think it should have been. We are there to learn about the scriptures not get on soap boxes! I agree that comments can be very insensitive. It can be very different here in Utah as well. One thing I have learned recently in my quest to listen to the spirit, is that everyone needs to feel our Heavenly Fathers love for them. We need to feel accepted even if we are "sinners". None of us is perfect. Heavenly Father never gives up on us and I think in Sunday School people can be very black an white with no mercy or grace. That is not our place and isn't it better to reach out then turn away? The only way people will change for the better is to show them love!
ReplyDeleteoh, sunday school...
ReplyDeletewe moved into a new ward six months ago and for the most part, our sunday school class has been great. but we have a few who feel like they need to "educate" the older generation on the pressing issues of the modern church. it kind of bugs me. in my old ward, a younger guy made a comment about women wearing pants to church and how it was asinine. little did he know there was a girl there that day who hadn't been to church in a while and as a r.s. presidency, we were working to fellowship her. she was wearing pants to church (mostly because i don't think she owned a dress), but she never came again. i don't know if that's what caused it, but his comment was so rude that it is highly likely. i just feel like when it comes to issues like that, keep your mouth shut if you don't have anything nice to say. like you said, you never know whose kid is gay, or who is struggling with feeling accepted. i don't know what it is about sunday school that makes people feel like they can say anything they want, especially when it could possibly be hurtful toward others. i just like to take most comments with a grain of salt.
Oh Mattie, that just kills me. How awful.
DeleteThis is so terrible. That poor girl.
DeleteI feel for Sunday School teachers. Most of them do not have the training it takes to control a classroom, guide a discussion, and keep a class focused. A teacher who is prepared, willing to listen to the spirit, and actively engaged in keeping the class focused, is worth a price above rubies. I know we have a lot of resources available, and that learning is part of taking a calling, but maybe the key would be a more active training for our teachers.
ReplyDeleteI've heard some crazy things in Sunday School, but sometimes I live for that, it makes Sunday spicy. However, I'm equipped to take the counterpoint without becoming offended. My heart goes out to our brothers and sisters who suffer every Sunday, their souls taking a battering from the blowhards and speculators. I love my faith, it won't be wounded just from Sunday School, but that's not always the case with many in our congregations. Maybe better training for our teachers would help keep discussions focused and faith based?
I think it is all the teacher. I wish bishoprics would be more assertive in releasing poor teachers after a few months. I'm all for giving people a chance to grow, but keeping a poor teacher in for months or years means that all the adults (not in the primary/YW/YM, etc..) aren't getting the kind of fulfillment and enlightenment we come to church for. In my experience good teachers love teaching so wards should find good teachers and let them teach and not be afraid to try someone new if needed.
ReplyDeleteAmen sister! It bugs me when a question about the state of the world comes up and everyone is all doom and gloom. There are a lot of great people out there-in and out of the church. Don't get me started on why I need to tuck in my scout shirt for pack meeting though...if that comes up in Sunday School I may need to get on my soapbox.
ReplyDeleteI think we could solve almost all of the problems I have with Sunday School if we recognized that Sunday School is for the sick, not the healthy. I guess I think that most of us are more like the bad examples we talk about in the scriptures than we are like the good examples. We aspire to be like the good ones, but we aren't there yet -- at least I'm not. That wouldn't stop the crazies, but I can take that and sort of enjoy it. I just don't want to hear how great the people sitting in the chairs are compared to those who aren't there.
ReplyDelete"I'm not sure privileging class discussion in Sunday School is good. I'd rather have a prepared teacher lecture to me for an hour than have to go off on some of the strange tangents that class members bring up."
ReplyDeleteHear, hear! I've thought this exact thing once or twice. Unfortunately, I don't have the solution. But I appreciate the conversation you've brought up Kaci!
omg Kacy, I'm trying to get the gumption up to go back to church, and this? (kidding. I already knew this.) I loved this post.
ReplyDeleteTotally agree with you and thanks for this. I'm "all in," too, but have had these same queasies sometimes sitting in Sunday School. And I agree with Carina; most teachers just don't have the training to guide the discussion .
ReplyDeleteI think a lot of the Sunday School quagmire could be avoided if we had this one guideline: you can only talk about how this scripture passage applies to YOU. Not your neighbor, not the other political party, not what people are wearing to church, not what "those people" or "the world" is doing. Unfortunately, some of the question prompts in the lessons encourage this kind of "the world and other people are rotten" discussion but I don't think they have a place in Sunday School AT ALL. Liken the scriptures unto YOURSELF. Worry 'bout yo'self, people.
Yeah, I may cross stitch this and anonymously hang it in the SS room...
DeleteI think Sunday School requires a strong teacher, well-prepared, with good classroom management skills or it is easily derailed.
ReplyDeleteAdditionally, I moved from the mountain West about 13 years ago and I think the "Sunday School problem" is a bigger problem there, although it exists everywhere. I visit home for four weeks in the summer and have vowed never to move back. I find the level of intolerance almost unbearable sometimes.
Sunday School is for losers. That's why you can usually find me in the foyer.
ReplyDeleteSeriously though, I think the 2 hour block is brilliant. I will happily commit to studying my scriptures for 1 hour a week at home to replace that blasted hour.
From a gospel doctrine teacher's perspective, there's not a Sunday that I teach that I don't feel anxiety. The root of my anxiety is the fact that speaking is not like writing; you cannot edit it, you can't proofread it before it's published. You say it and it's done. It's out there. You can't take it back, even if you try to reword it. And you're on the spot when you're teaching, so a case of the nerves makes for some serious diarrhea of the mouth sometimes- even if you've done all you can to prepare as a teacher! I fear (literally) every other Sunday when it's my turn up to bat- that something I say will be misconstrued or it won't come out the way I mean it or someone will be offended by it. I absolutely love to teach but it's a uniquely challenging calling. I also get the impression that many people commenting in class have some of the same feelings. It's not easy for most (harder for some than others obviously) to talk in front of a large group of people, no matter how small of a comment he/she is making. So I may tend to feel somewhat more forgiving towards people participating. I feel that the intention *usually* is to add to the content of the discussion and uplift others. And I can honestly say I have left more Sunday school classes feeling lifted up than not. I think that in any discussion type of class, if every individual took responsibility for the atmosphere and spirit of the class and approached class in that way, we might have more thought-provoking, inspired comments and may even be able to hold the crazies at bay. :)
ReplyDeleteMaybe we've just had really different experiences in Sunday school- I'm dying to hear your stories.
I get to teach Gospel Doctrine right now and I love it. I prefer it hands down to the other classes because it's (supposed to be) based in the scriptures and I love that. I've been to plenty of RS classes and some SS classes that didn't float my boat either. But I always think of Elder Eyring's father, I believe, who when faced with a less than stellar meeting, simply thought about the topic trying to be taught, and let the Spirit give him his own lesson. I guess Sunday School, like most things, is there to help us learn to be humble and charitable.
ReplyDeleteactually, i'd probabaly say sunday school is my favorite leg of the sunday service. i think the discussion aspect keeps my focus better than the sit and listen parts - but also, i've lived in chicago and dc for the majority of my adult life and people, generally, aren't going off on offensive rants (relatively speaking, of course - i'm sure someone could be offended). for a few yrs in chicago we even had an extra sunday school class for people (usually 10-15 of us) who would rather have an hour (or whatever it is) of theoretical discussion rather than the standard lecture with questions. it was like sunday xanadu. dc is a bit more staid - it's an older demographic (harry reid's a regular contributor, but not particularly staid). i suppose, also, in both cities the teachers, generally, had graduate degrees of somekind (or were graduate students) - so perhaps that makes a difference. i was, however, in az (where i grew up) for a few months a couple years ago and the thought that came to mind repeatedly as i sat in sunday school was "i didn't think people still said that." but in my short time there, i found the people in the ward to be extremely kind and charitable - so i think had i been there longer, the dissonance between those two aspects would have grated and made the class unenjoyable.
ReplyDeleteand i thought found fast and testimony meeting was the venue for crazy people to say their piece. if i didn't have an extrememly low tolerance for awkwardness (and if not for the fast part), i'd think popcorn and milk duds would be in order.
And THIS is why I can be found in the Church hallways conducting what people in the ward sarcastically call, "Hallway Sunday School." I have discussed this very point with my Bishops over the years when I'm "pulled in" to see why I haven't been attending SS. I do have good intentions of attending all of my Sunday meetings at various times. YET, after a few weeks of diligently attending, I want to poke out my eyes and eardrums!! Yes, I've been the Gospel Doctrine instructor multiple times over the years, and I'm not one bit hurt if people don't choose to attend. We all have our own 'issues.'
ReplyDeleteI have to say that I didn't read any of the other comments but I full heartedly agree with this post. I went from being in primary for eighteen months to Sunday School in a new ward. What an experience. And how about that Noah lesson. Gay issues were spouted out all over the place. Especially from the elderly in my new ward. When we got up to leave a Sister approached me and said, "Don't worry it's not usually like this". But then you know I had one more week of "real" church before I was called to Primary so I guess I'll lose out on all the mentally unstable speaking freely.
ReplyDeletePrimary does tend to provide a safe haven from Sunday School!
DeleteI just adore attending our ward's (near Boston) Gospel Essentials class for new members and newly returning members. The true gospel is taught with no frills, room for sincere questions and truly a spirit of love and acceptance. Whenever we travel to a new ward, we always try to attend the Gospel Essentials class since we know that's where the real action of the gospel is at! Having a missionary mindset can completely change how you approach Sunday school and helps one to self-edit comments made in class.
ReplyDelete